The God Baby Dilemma
Aug 3
Why past choices can't make major future storylines
As fans are chatting up the forums about Dragon Age 2 and new DLCs, you can hardly avoid mentions and wishes of “god baby.” BioWare didn’t help stem the speculation either, by mentioning that “We are certainly not done with Morrigan’s story.” But the whole idea of expanding on the god baby storyline in the future presents with one major problem – what if you rejected Morrigan? The thought made me realize that past choices logically can’t shape future major storylines and remain fair to all players.
When Morrigan confronted my Cousland with the option — bed me and conceive a child and it will absorb the soul of an Old God — it just seemed wrong. Morrigan, who lives by a very bent moral code and “power-has-meaning” lifestyle, giving birth to a child with an ancient Imperium mage’s soul in it wasn’t going to pan out for my noble second son who strove to do good in the world. So I shut her down, sent her packing wolf-style out of Redcliffe Castle.
And that was it. I knew that it would be my sword that would be plunging through the Archdemon. Riordan obviously wasn’t going to make it and Ferelden needed Alistair as King more than it needed me as Warden, which left only one option. We all know how the rest of the story pans out.
So when people at every turn are asking about god baby — Will it be in Dragon Age 2? Will they release a DLC about it? Will it be a companion in Dragon Age 3 down the line? Will Flemeth possess it? — I sit here and think that BioWare has painted themselves into a tight spot with the whole thing. A company that prides itself on story-telling either has to respect story continuity or they’re going to have to get really creative and try to explain how this god baby came to be if neither me or any of my Warden companions did the deed.
Part of the problem is that the god baby story is pinned into a choice, meaning that some players, like me, may not choose it. But there are a lot of choices that don’t garner as much attention as god baby — Mages vs. Templars, saving/defiling the Urn of Sacred Ashes, etc. The issue with the god baby is that it’s a choice at the end of the game and that it leaves a definite cliffhanger. Morrigan conceives the child and runs off with it at the end of the game. There’s no closure there.
It’s a compelling story with too many questions that players want answers to. Where did Morrigan go? What kind of power does this child have, if any? Is it going to be evil like the Archdemon it inherited or is it just going to be an average kid with exceptional talents? There’s a lot things players don’t know and when it’s pretty much the last decision your Warden makes, you want some closure. It leaves the door open for great story development in the future.
But since it’s a choice, BioWare can’t easily come out and make the god baby storyline a major part of future software if they have respect for their story continuity. It would be the same as if the developers formed a major portion of the story of a future game around the Dalish Elves you meet in Origins. It would be great and work if you saved the Dalish, but if you got the werewolves to slaughter them all, then what’s going to happen to that whole part of the story in the new game? How do they explain that?
Dragon Age lead writer David Gaider elaborated on the god baby specifically but also on the topic at hand: “If the player didn’t do the Dark Ritual, or didn’t get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn’t done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon’s soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble?
“We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan’s part whereby she gets the Archdemon’s soul but has to do something far more terrible– but a) that removes the player’s agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and b) would probably be pretty lame,” he said, however did not completely rule out that the storyline may not make some sort of appearance in the future if it was chosen.
More about continuity and choice on page two …
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57 comments
Comment by pad man on August 3, 2010 at 7:33 pm
why did they even give us the option in the first place?! i for one didnt accept mainly because i thought the only way to end the story and give my warden some closure was to have him sacrifice himself
if they DO have the God baby in da2 i will feel betrayed as it will be like my warden died for nothing as it wouldnt have made a difference whether or not he accepted
Comment by @baZ1NGa27 on August 3, 2010 at 7:51 pm
I think bioware will go the Mass Effect path and set up an official canon where the Warden accepted Morigan's deal and got it on to make god baby. When i uploaded my mass effect save into ME2, nothing was more satisfying than seeing Wrex as king of the Korgans!
Comment by stevegarbage on August 3, 2010 at 8:48 pm
It has been confirmed that BioWare will set a default for DA2 (much like they did with Alistair as King in Awakening). As for what they decide for DA2, it's impossible to say at this point. I'd wager on the ultimate sacrifice actually.
Comment by Elrico Garrett on August 3, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Maybe this will shut those crazy fanboys up!! who am i kidding? this is fraking awesome!!!
Comment by nappy boy on August 3, 2010 at 10:15 pm
so will i!
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 3, 2010 at 10:30 pm
I agree that it will become cannon that the warden or in a sub made plot they could quite easily do all the cutscenes and programing to have the cannon fall on either alistar, loghain or warden.. the file reads what choice you made.. and carries this option forth to the god baby game.. if you didnt choose to complete the dark ritual.. then erm.. why are you buying the game??? its one thing to buy summat cos you have a point.. but also are you all kidding me?? I beg to argue that out of everyone who has read this.. posted on this site.. Id say 99% of you have 1 character that has completed the ritual.. makes me laugh when all these say oh no ive not done it why would i i took the moral high ground on that one.. then another post over are saying whoo i just got my final trophey.. Erm excuse me but to get that you need to have done the dark ritual.. *sigh!! Regardless of whatever hate mail, comments or whatever to the contrary The god baby is bigger than any possible future story there could be.. with its connection to the Archdemon how could it not be.. Awakenings gave us a 'big evil' Hmm yeah sorry wasnt impressed.. not after the arch demon.. The god baby with Morrigan has the potential to be the ultimate (our) Wardens endgame.. people keep wanting a 'fitting end' for the warden.. I can say with 100% certainty.. This is you End game!!
Comment by nnylarac on August 3, 2010 at 10:43 pm
In the beginning of Awakening you meet either Allistair or Anora after a quick sweep through the keep. It can be either person depending on the choices you made. A bad guy is a bad guy, sure one guy may say a little more than another but the are both equally bad. In a future game could they not just have a part where if you had a 'god baby' evil guy to fight against and if you didn't do that maybe morrigan would take the 'god baby's' place and be equally as hard and evil? She might have a different idea behind her but how would it be different from starting off as a different race? you wouldn't have to redesign the entire story just tweak it a little giving the same options with a different looking antagonist. Just a thought, it doesn't have to be as complex as everyone makes it.
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 3, 2010 at 11:12 pm
Also to add.. If the God baby is wasted on simple.. 'backstory' or a footnote in a future game.. then they have blown in such massive scale the potential for one of the biggest story Arc's that dragon age origins could produce.. This is doable and as i said in my earlier post.. i challange anyone to say they have not at the very least ONE character that hasnt been through the ritual.. the number of those who choose ultimate sacrifice every single playthrough is not only rediculously low but anyone who has truley needs to widen there imagination. As far as overall lore and how this will effect the world and game history as you proceed the problem is very easily fixed.. as mentioned before continuity has been a problem.. so whats one more.. but for those who would argue against that as in the main article then my defense is simple.. Its an easy fix. nnylarac (the earlier post on thios topic) said it best.. there is no reason not for this to go ahead.. everyone will have most likely one character this will effect directly.. via warden, alistar or loghain.. mostly warden or alistar id guess.. depending on your sexuality in game. And those who dont why does this have to be so complicated.. a little nip and tuck and Morrigan found another means of obtaining her goal.. a very short alternate cutscene with different wording and then everything else flows the same.. the persuit.. the conversations possibly again tweaked depending on the situation ie. did you kill the elves or side with them.. and continue to your finale.. ultimate battle to destroy this evil and morrigan, make morrigan see the error of her ways and join back with you.. rescue the child (if still a child) and it become a most valuable ally in future battle to come (or even your successor) once the warden dies and can become your character in future games (custom the appearence to your liking (since it is your son/daughter) and has the powers of a mage but the strength and battle prowess of a warrior and the cunning of a rogue or whatever class crossbreed you made.. and from the next game aspect you level this character up as it learns and grows.. finding out its true potential and then giving players an ultimate choice to make.. will you become the savoir of mankind.. or the ultimate evil against the lands of faralden and the rest of Thedas :) yes i have thought a great great great deal about this and thus is why i care so much about the issue..
Comment by Sara Bristow on August 3, 2010 at 11:36 pm
I have a feeling that – regardless of the player's choice – Morrigan will have a child. As always BioWare will probably implement the "import save from previous game" option. If the player rejected Morrigan's offer, the baby will not have the soul of an Archdemon. If they accepted the offer, vice versa. That is if BioWare intends to make a full-length story out of this – who knows? They may pull an Awakening where you can play your character even if she or he was killed by the Archdemon.
I say the above simply because (SPOILER ALERT) in the canon story, the Cousland son falls in love with the beautiful dark-haired temptress and even if he rejects her offer to conceive a demon baby, she has a baby regardless — due to sex prior to the event leading up to the offer. So what would stop Morrigan from having a baby with someone else even if the offer was rejected and she was not impregnated by a male Warden, if only to mimic her mother's "live forever" magic ritual?
Nevertheless, DA2 promises Flemeth as a potential party member. I have a feeling this isn't Flemeth at all, but Morrigan masquerading as her mother's legend. We'll see!
Comment by Atreieux on August 4, 2010 at 2:29 am
There really is no dilemma. It is just a game and if you get upset about a decision that doesn’t follow through then you may feel free to not play the game.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 1:45 am
You make a lot of assumptions:
1) You assume every players plays through the game at least twice. While many people do, I doubt every player does.
2) You assume that the ritual is the "right" decision to make and all players view it as such. Although I've played it both ways (my Aeducan did it) I always consider my Cousland to be "my" Warden and "the" Warden. He did not and would not ever if given the choice 100 out of 100 times. While you think the ritual is the "right" answer to the question, I, personally, will never agree.
3) You assume that the god baby is eventually going to be some magnificent grand being. Just because it has the soul of an old god in it doesn't mean it's going to be anything special. While there is obviously potential, just because you have an old god's soul in you doesn't necessarily make you and old god.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 1:49 am
4) You assume that people will ever be satisfied with the ending for their Wardens. Even if you did get to go toe to toe with an insanely powerful, evil, god baby someday, I'm sure a segement of people still wouldn't be able to let go because it wouldn't wrap up exactly how they wanted. So you defeat the god baby maybe but then what? If your Warden dies after that how could that be satisfying – you've basically ended up in the same place. You could have *not* done the ritual, died and never had to bring another evil into the world and defeated it. I'm sure if you just wander off after that battle or settle down back home or whatever, that won't be good enough either.
I had a fitting end for my Cousland. He sacrificed himself to defeat the Archdemon. He'll be remembered forever as a hero. He shirk his duties as a Warden with some risky scapegoat ritual that could potentially put a dangerous child in the hands of Morrigan, a dangerous woman. I can say with 100 percent certainty that I'm happy with that.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 4:00 am
I think you just proved what I'm trying to get at perhaps without even realizing it. If BioWare wants to do the story, they have to do it as you described – the *default* would be Morrigan. If you decided to do the ritual, the god baby could be an add-in or replacement. You're right, it doesn't have to be complex because the developers could and would have to minimalize the importance of the god baby and shoehorn it into a story about Morrigan.
You would go out into the world looking for Morrigan. Whether she has the god baby or not is dependant on your import data. But the quest would be designed around a constant, Morrigan, and not a variable, god baby. I don't know if it's what you intended, but you just reflected exactly what I was getting at. Thanks!
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 2:09 am
If the canon Warden is the Cousland and if the canon is that he falls in love with Morrigan, it's not been confirmed by anything I've ever seen or read by BioWare. As of this point, no race, no gender, none of it has been declared canon. We won't be able to make determinations of what's "right" so to say until we see what BioWare would set up as defaults for DA2.
As in example, in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, there's no way to determine if a male/female Revan who saves/enslaves the galaxy is "right." But when KotOR II was released, the default that BioWare set for people who didn't play the first game is a male Revan who turned to the Light Side and saved the galaxy. That is when that setup became the canon for Revan.
But there's nothing out there that says a male Cousland in love with Morrigan is canon or "right" morseo than a female city elf in love with Leliana or a female Brosca in love with no one or any other combination. It can only be determined when DA2's defaults are analyzed.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 2:14 am
Heh, try using that argument on everyone who thinks DA2 should be a Warden continuation and not Hawke's story and see how it flies.
Anyhow, there's no harm in having a discussion over it. If you'd not like to take part in the discussion, that's your decision. This article (and all articles I try to write here) are just to get people thinking about the game or think about it in a different way. That's what the site is all about.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 2:20 am
Please make sure to read the response I left to nnylarac's comment about the "tweaks."
As for the "nip and tuck" to shoehorn it in for *all* people, I don't see that happening, at least based on what lead writer David Gaider said. Reiterated here: “If the player didn’t do the Dark Ritual, or didn’t get Alistair or Loghain to do it, then it wasn’t done. Had Morrigan figured out some way to otherwise do it, then nobody would have died when the Archdemon was slain. If she had some way to go about getting the Archdemon’s soul without resorting to the Dark Ritual as she proposed it, then why did she go through all the trouble? We could undoubtedly come up with some complex Plan B on Morrigan’s part whereby she gets the Archdemon’s soul but has to do something far more terrible– but a) that removes the player’s agency in the biggest single choice of Origins and b) would probably be pretty lame."
Comment by capt_parsons on August 4, 2010 at 5:28 am
Why does everyone assume that if Bioware decides to continue the Morrigan story, Bioware will actually explain the god-baby? You actually believe that you will meet Morrigan in future content and she will say, "Hey, its you Warden! Come meet our god baby!"? Really?
I believe that Bioware will do as they have stated and bring Morrigan back. I believe she will have a child… who can do magical things (it IS Morrigan's child after all), but I dont think she will ever tell you who/what her child is or if its the Wardens child. She just says its my child. All vague and mysterious like when you first met her in the Kokari Wilds.
Hey look at that! No impossible continuity. No multiple story strands that must be tied together dependant on your choices at the end of DAO. Having solved that one… back to figuring out World Peace. heh
Comment by King Warden on August 4, 2010 at 5:33 am
At the end of origins. In the prologue after you done everything and killed the archdemon. One of the end story slides say when Morrigan was last seen she was believed to be with child.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 4, 2010 at 6:58 am
If you are a male Warden and sleep with Morrigan in camp but don't do the ritual, there is an epilogue ending where it states she is possibly pregnant. However that child would not have the soul of an old god.
If you're female or if you don't romance Morrigan and don't do the ritual, however, I don't believe there is any indication that she is pregnant or has a child.
There are details about possible epilogue endings at the Dragon Age wiki —> http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Epilogue
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 4, 2010 at 10:16 am
Well put.. there are too many people who keep using the if you dont like it then here the door attitude..
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 4, 2010 at 10:37 am
And you dear sir assume you know exactly what i mean ;P I never said every plyer i did in fact say if i remember rightly.. (it is early for me afterall and still aleep) but i did say aprox 90% of people would choose the ritual with at least ONE of there characters.. and no this is not cos it is the RIGHT ending or choice.. i do believe i have never said anything of that sort. But since my post last night i have had the chance to read the mass of other comments on this matter too and i believe someone else also offered a valid explination for how this could go ahead.. if the ritual did not go ahead then Morrigan is still your focus.. as a friend.. a former lover.. a 'sister' or nemesis the desire to go after her is still there.. add villager rumours that have been overheard by the character into the mix and the warden now has the knowledge that she has been seen prognant.. does this HAVE to be the god baby.. No! not at all.. for those who have that option then hell yes bring it on.. but for those who choose not to.. then Morrigan is devious enough to find some way or use of magic to give her unborn child (whom she could have had with anyone) some dark powers.. either by following in her 'mothers' magical footsteps or by some other magical incantation or ritual we know nothing about.
The beauty of all this i almost all of what we dont know is still open script.. they can create whatever reasons and explinations for this matter they see fit..
I also believe that in some way if the sacrifice ending was meant to be a main one then there is no reason at all to include your warden into Awakenings.. I know this has been talked about but truley there isnt.. it could have been an expansion where you just carry on the Orlisian Warden to see what happened after the blight.. there was no real big need to have it be the warden if you was happy with your death. likewise this has been done for DA2 giving you a new character..
If you choose not to do the ritual then let your character stay dead..
If you choose to do the ritual then awakenings is your next chapter in your tale and onwards from there..
we shape out characters future by what we do at the end of Origins.. So as i just said if you dont want the dark ritual option then let your warden die like he was meant to in that story.. but for those who choose to do the ritual then that explains why your still alive and kicking when the ones who didnt should be dead and thus creating your inaccurate plot.
Comment by Lord_Anthonior on August 4, 2010 at 10:43 am
Personally, I don't even tried to bother myself with such questions, I did make the ritual, I only romanced Morrigan but my main concern is to have her back, if by the writers I don't get to see my child then fine. If I do get to see him or her then fine but what actually concerns me is to see Morrigan back otherwise then my real choice from start to finish would be wiped out and is not about to make the ritual or not, or the urn or the warewolves, but the root of the choice regarding the god baby is, should I even bothered to choose Morrigan over Leliana to romance her?
Even at the beginning any man looks at both characters, Morrigan and Leliana and it doesn't take too much effort nor too much time to choose with wich one start the romance, however, the end of such choice is rewarded or shown untill the end at the ritual, after the coronation and in the epilogue. The truth is that YES, yes indeed there are many questions to answer about the ritual, the baby and also about Morrigan and the game itself is all about choices, since the choice of what origin you'll play till the very last one of who is going to slay the archdemon. The only way that each one of us players will get a 100% satisfying development of each of our choices would be to apply for a job at bioware for writing and wait for their approval or to spend quite some time using the toolset, otherwise its up to them and we can only be satisfied with the product as much as we concede to be.
Comment by nappy boy on August 4, 2010 at 11:29 am
right on i personally think some people are too hostile
Comment by will the geek on August 4, 2010 at 2:52 pm
@ pad man
the same with me i also hope they don't resurrect my warden in da3 as it would ruin the point of the ultimate sacrifice which was (to me anyway) a redemption for the character (seeing as how i made him a conflicted mage on the verge of being evil
Comment by Godzilla Guru on August 4, 2010 at 6:44 pm
I hate to sound so offensive, but seriously? Steve here has even a quote from David Gaider that sounds like the god child isn’t going to be in it (though they may make a canon story, as many who did the ritual would like in this regard). And while you can import your ‘ultimate sacrifice’ Warden over to Awakenings, I think someone on here called it an undo of your decisions in the last game (which makes sense when you think about it). At this point, though, it’s still too early to tell. Until the game comes out, all we can do (or at least it seems that way) is agree to disagree.
Comment by Daeren on August 4, 2010 at 4:48 pm
My proposal would be that people should get realistic expectations: if Bioware decides to take decisions into account for some future installment, they will most likely make a selection. Perhaps they will make it by way of a certain timespan, so that minor decisions might have disappeared into insignficance over time, so they can focus on major things.
Those decisions that will carry over will likely be linked by some indirect focal point, not unlike the original.
And in case of major factions (kingship, races,…) they could deal with it through hostility/friendship ratings while retaining basic story-outlines.
Comment by Daeren on August 4, 2010 at 5:12 pm
I don't see why the god baby has to be evil, as you put it. I mean, there is no purely good faction, so why should an old god necessarily turn out evil? If there would be that old god faction represented by the child, it would probably be neutral and could go either way. Like "nature" against "church" against "templars" against "politicians" and so on.
Comment by Daeren on August 4, 2010 at 5:28 pm
One has to substitute Templars with Circle to get it balanced, but you get the idea…
Comment by Joshua on August 4, 2010 at 6:01 pm
I'm thinking they might explore the God Baby in a DLC. I mean considering that the Dark Spawn Chronicles ignores your character somewhat, why not make a DLC that explores the God Baby. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Comment by nnylarac on August 4, 2010 at 6:11 pm
I understand what you mean and I suppose I didn't mean evil, lol. As a writer the conflict that is created by the 'god baby' story line is a good conflict because it leaves readers wanting more. Because of the way that the 'god baby' story line arc is set up I assumed that he would be an antagonist, though this may not be the case as stevegarbage was saying it would be difficult to create a default story line for those that did not go the 'god baby' route. If the child turned to be your companion, who would a companion if you did not have a child? It would be harder to create this child to be on Hawke's side than against it. Morrigan probably isn't evil, she is just manipulative like many humans except she happens to have magical power as well…kinda sucks for anyone that she is manipulating ie. your warden. If you become friends enough with her she shows in talking to her almost remorse for her plan that seemed to be formulating the entire time. It is obvious this was her plan since if you tell her no for the 'god baby' she goes away and you don't see her again. I agree good and evil are pretty much blurred and just as people are in real life there are decisions you make that do not exactly make it black and white. All I meant was he would likely be an antagonist of sorts.
Comment by something random on August 4, 2010 at 6:13 pm
finally something i agree with you about!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by Lauren on August 4, 2010 at 6:55 pm
'if you didnt choose to complete the dark ritual.. then erm.. why are you buying the game???'
I'm not in the habit of pointing stuff out when it annoys me but that was just an unbelievably ignorant comment.
Anyway, personally, as someone who didn't accept the Dark Ritual I will feel cheated if OGB turns up in the future, as accepting or rejecting Morrigan's offer is arguably the most difficult decision in the game and it's not fair to players who chose the Ultimate Sacrifice to just sweep that under the carpet.
I can accept the 'Morrigan has a child- father not specified' plotline, and also the Morrigan and/or God Baby replacement option. It might ruffle my canon feathers a bit but that's only because I'm anally retentive. I just don't want them to outright ignore my decision, that's all.
I suppose another option is that they could have a powerful future antagonist (or ally) with an unspecified background- the player can make their own presumptions about whether it's OGB, one of the Achitect's followers or something completely different. But that might just be a massive cop out.
Comment by Lauren on August 4, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Correction: my Warden didn't go through with the Dark Ritual but had romanced Alistair. He sacrified himself, she became Warden-Commander, Anora greeted me as Queen. Totally accurate plot, no Dark Ritual.
Comment by Willowstead on August 5, 2010 at 1:21 am
Here's the thing about the God-Baby…. its such a good plot hook.
Blights don't come along very often, so we need something meaty for a full game. Its such good meat…
I've been having lots of fun with Morrigan's little terror in fanfiction
Anyway, there is a loophole that can be exploited by developers if they really want to go this way: Alistair. Even lover Wardens can't keep an eye on each other at all times. He slipped out that night in Redcliff and made a little godling, whether for love or fear. Hell, Morrigan could have spelled him into it. That can work with most scenerios, though not all.
And I think we gamers can be a little flexible if its for a good game.
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 1:33 am
Thats ONE character.. im saying that in your entire Origins experience.. every character you made.. every race etc etc.. you may make the sacrifice once.. maybe even twice or a third time.. but by the 4th if your still repeating that same ending then its not really getting you the full DAO experience and thus almost everyone will have one save game that involves the ritual..
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 1:37 am
doesnt have to validate your decision or invalidate it with having the god baby.. if its a DLC for the game and your not happy about it then dont buy it was my point.. but as ive said time n again.. throughout your entire DAO experience i doubt very much for all and every character you have made that every single time you have used the Sacrifice option.. Every time?? dont think so.. so the god baby story is there and playable in almost everyones characters be it your main favourite or a side one you made just to experience the 'Dark side'
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 1:38 am
FINALLY god at last somebody else gets my point!!
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 10:39 am
Ok here goes.. This is gonna possibly be my final post on this issue, Mostly cos no matter what my argument some people read it all the wrong way and wanna make out i'm being offensive, assumptive or ignorant.. or whatever!!
Last i checked this was an open forum made for comments, critisism and opinions of which i have shared mine on a subject i do actually care a lot about and for something that is just a game it says a lot given the other real world things i could choose to care about..
So in closing my argument on this matter i offer you this final observation of my own in the hope that you will see things like ive tried to offer.. from anothers perspecive on the issue.. and hopefully you after reading my following comments might jump off my back and remove some of them knives about this issue cos my mental reasoning for feeling like i do about this issue are quite valid and reasonable i assue you all.. Not just shooting off my mouth thinking i know more than i do but eeing events that nobody has commented on and putting possible clues and facts together..
The god baby dilemma –
You need to look further back than the sacrifice/ritual ending.. Much earlier in the game (Unless you drove Morrigan from your party) which is something i believe is definatly not considered canon.. You were asked to perform a side quest for Morrigan.. Finding the Real Grimoire within the circle tower and thus when you did giving it to Morrigan only to have her horrified at a later point by its truth's held within..
You are then asked to go after Flemmeth and 'Kill' her for her plan to either by then you Friend/companion/love interest (Morrigan)
I believe this again – The going on the quest to flemmeth's hut.. regardless of what transpires next is another possible canon..
otherwise why have all the effort of putting in the whole story about the grimoire, flemeths past as told my both morrigan and Leliana in many conversations between myself and them..
What you CHOOSE to do next it up to you.. do you slay Flemmeth or do you let her live to terrorize Morrigan another day.. (even if you kill Flemmeth we all know this isnt neccesarily the end as so much away from her appearence in DA2 says that she will be back even after death).
And thus on returning to Morrigan you present her with her new garments and Flemmeth's real Grimoire.. A tome of great knowledge and study for Morrigan to learn more about her dark powers and magic.. Also adding to fact Morrigan and Flemmeth had a plan already in place to seduce the warden and obtain the god baby a FACT that is revealed wether you choose sacrifice or ritual.
So now Morrigan has her mothers Grimoire.. regardless of if you killed her to get it or just let her walk away.. another canon.
All this points to Morrigan learnign more about ritual and performing it.. Why give you all that to do if you was just gonna say.. No sorry Morrigan i will not do as you ask!!..
It feels even if only to me as the games developers had this choosen path set ahead when making it.. ok wether they changed there mind after is another matter but im speaking from what i see and play as the game unfolds around me.. You are sent after the grimoire.. you are choosen to give Morrigan the grimoire after a battle or not.. even still you GO after it.. and to do all that only to then turn away from that path and say no.. just doesnt seem like that is where it was designed to lead.. Yes to have a sacrifice is the 'Good' ending in a way.. die a hero.. but id doesnt seem to be the 'choosen/canon' ending.. too much after the fact goes against it.. i mention again Awakenings and you & Alistar being alive..
But anyway there you go for all the negativity i've enjoyed 'trying' to get my point across and whatever negativity you have had in return i assure you that it is unjust.. I'm not a know it all, or anotheing else you threw at me.. I am a writer, Not a sucesful one or even published but that is my dream and have been chasing that dream for so many yeras now that dream often becomes nightmare, But it helps me to see from a creative viewpoint what other may overlook or not want to see cos they feel so strongly about the issue with there opinion, which yes is also valid, but ive tried to assemble the facts and i'm sure there is many others whih would also count in my argument in my favour.. But i spent a great deal of last night thinking about the issue playing through the game once again and in closing this is my defense for those who think my comment is as i said before.. ignorant.. assumptive or whatever else ive missed in the mass amount of comments and reply i've read through on this issue daily.. If nothing else this has been one hell of a hot topic and i truley believe the developers if there not already need to pay attention to this and what the fans want or would like in the future of there favourite game..
Quote the Crowangel.. Nevermore !!
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 10:39 am
agreed but try telling that to the masses lol
Comment by Lauren on August 5, 2010 at 3:52 pm
But then the US ending wouldn't have happened because whoever killed the Archdemon wouldn't have died?
Comment by stevegarbage on August 5, 2010 at 3:54 pm
I think the biggest thing you're misunderstanding is "canon." Canon either has to be A) Consistent through all playthroughs to be determined as irrefutable fact or B) A detail set as a fact by the world/story/game creator. Since Dragon Age has so many variables, there is very little that is canon. Most of the canon of Origins and Awakening won't be set until we can see what the defaults are that BioWare sets in DA2.
You can't "consider" something canon. It either is or it isn't. Canon is fact, law. If there's any variability to it at all, it's not canon. For example – Arl Eamon surviving the Fifth Blight is canon. It ALWAYS happens no matter what you do. You have to save him and he always lives the final battle. Morrigan receiving the Black Grimoire, for example, is NOT canon, because it may not happen in some people's games. You may drive her out of the party, you never find it to gift to her or you may never talk to her in camp for her to ask for it. It's not consistent across ALL playthroughs.
I respect that you think the ritual and the god baby is the "right" or "best" decision. I, however, disagree. And as of this point there is no "right" answer because there is relatively little canon established – although I do appreciate the discussion.
Comment by Daeren on August 5, 2010 at 3:59 pm
It would probably be a source of some unrest, that's true. But without talking about right decisions and best solutions: it seems like a missed chance, especially in such a setting, to not allow the storyline (whether it happens or not) some ambiguity at first.
And like someone else pointed out, it is good meat for a story, it is a significant change in the world, not unlike the re-appearance of dragons. (Coincidentally, this is a perfect match to the Daenerys-storyline in SoIaF which was clearly a major inspiration.)
But I doubt the writers have decided on what they would do with it, or if they'll ever use it.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 5, 2010 at 4:00 pm
That would be fine by me if it came as standalone content and I would gladly play it. I'm just saying that it can't be formed as a core of a major future game or in-game DLC (like Return to Ostagar).
Comment by stevegarbage on August 5, 2010 at 4:02 pm
Good point. If that was the case it wouldn't explain why your Warden/Alistair/Loghain is dead at the end of the game. If she did do it in secret off camera, you'd plunge that sword into the Archdemon and then be like "Wait a second, I'm not dead? What gives?"
When it goes to the pre-epilogue cutscenes, my Warden was definitely dead on that altar, no if-ands-or-buts about it.
Comment by Lauren O'Donoghue on August 5, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Steve, I think I might have a bit of a crush on you.
To wrap up the point I'm trying to make here:
To my mind, Origins is a phenomenal game because of choice element. The feeling of having an impact on the world around you is what gives it that level of immersion that really sets it apart from other RPGs.
It doesn't matter whether most people choose the Dark Ritual, or if some may choose to do it on one playthrough but not another- the whole point of that decision is that there was no right answer.
The Old God Baby throws up some very interesting issues and it does have fantastic potential as a future plotline, I am in no way denying that. My point is that if BioWare turn around and declare it canon they'll be alienating those people who didn't choose that path. I'm in no way against them working around it as has been discussed, or producing a DLC based around it. That's great because it IS ackowledging those who took part in the ritual. But equal attention needs to be given to those of us who didn't. You can't prioritise one over the other.
Comment by stevegarbage on August 5, 2010 at 6:36 pm
I'm flattered, heh. Although I hope it's my writing you're crushing on, otherwise I advise you watch out for my fiancee!
Comment by Simon 'Crowangel' Lewis on August 5, 2010 at 9:58 pm
LMAO!! and even tho i said it would be my last post i will add my opinions still just not in the full length i have till now but will say i stand corrected my interpritation of what canon was is not how you described so i stand very much corrected on that issue as you are right.. and as to the dilemma being a DLC to aknowledge those who have at least one ritual save in there databanks i think it truley is the best way.. not a expansion as unless your gonna build up to it with adventures leading to the capture/destruction of morrigan and or child then there is a great vast unknown there still that is open to exploring.. possibility of a literall 'Witch hunt' though is very very appealing and will have my constant backing on the issue.. Soooo onto my next issue.. Will we get to go after Marjoline (spelling i apologise for as its a ticky name to spell without it in from of me lol) and thus close Leliana's tale :P
Comment by Willowstead on August 6, 2010 at 3:14 am
Dang, my loophole isn't so loopy… but I think it can be worked around. Heart failure from that massive energy pulse?
Comment by Willowstead on August 6, 2010 at 3:21 am
Come to think of it, "Wait a second, why am I not dead?" could be an interesting lead in, especially if your Warden is in love with Alistair. Does it destroy the relationship? Does your warden forgive this little infeidelity for the greater good?
I've enjoyed exploring this; Willowstead on Fanfiction.net (shameless self-promotion FTW)
Comment by Kev on August 7, 2010 at 8:54 am
You know it seems no matter what everyone thinks A there should be a god baby or B no it never happened my warden died.You will never be able to please any sides due to the choices offered to the player.In defense the god baby does sound like a good plot device he could either be a new god reborn or the devil himself who will enslave or destroy everyone in a future release.Just imagine that you could play the character who born with power instead of being a peasant or good guy who gets shafted in the end.It one of my pet peeves that in games and movies the good guy will mostly win.
Comment by Samarkand on August 10, 2010 at 12:52 am
The "god-baby" is hard to discuss. It invokes issues of self sacrifice and Morrigan as a romance. My Dalish Elf rejected Morrigan because he did not love her (I thought in-character that Morrigan the human would never love an elf or a dwarf or vice versa anyway) and Morrigan's offer seemed wrong and mysterious. My Cousland warrior loved her and accepted to save his comrades, not just himself. As far as romance, it is the only one of the four with no chance of any happy ending. BioWare smacked Morrigan lovers hard in DAO and also in DAA (no letter, no sugar, unlike other ones). Given that the Morrigan tale is not over (supposedly) and that the Warden's story is not over (supposedly), the god-baby is the only strand of hope that Morrigan lovers have to someday reconcile this broken relationship.
Does accepting and romancing matter? Yes. Why? Because as of Feb 2010, BioWare shipped off 3.2 million games. Assuming they sold them given how much $$$ was made, if 35% of gamers accepted Morrigan's offer (Probably low, given many gamers accepted and rejected the offer with same or different characters), that is 1.12 million gamers or the population of Tucson, Arizona. If 50% of that 35% actually cared about Morrigan in deciding (not just award hunting etc.), that is 560,000 gamers, or the population of Kansas City, Missouri. Over half a million gamers accepting the offer and caring for Morrigan is significant in a game market as small as fantasy RPG. And I am not including male and female Warden gamers who "befriended" Morrigan and got her very touching friendship speech at Fort Drakon.
So, this god-child is very important to those of us who want one more chance with Morrigan, not just canon. While you can't please everyone, we would appreciate the opportunity (with "her" Warden, not Hawke etc.) to do so. So I ask the indulgence of those who sacrificed themselves or otherwise feel cheated over this child-god.
This is not rocket science to pull off, given that BioWare is great at continuing decisions from one game to another. Any number of scenarios work, as a major game subplot or a DLC . One is that Flemeth absconds with the child right away, for she can counter the True Black Grimoire since she knows its contents and is very experienced. Maybe she takes the child to the Black City to await ritual prep. Morrigan cannot take on Flemeth by herself so she goes to the only allies she trusts, the Grey Wardens (and her former lover or friend, if alive). If BioWare is considerate, they could use this as an opportunity to gather up and reunite the DAO four romance options (so all DAO gamers have a romance reunion) with your past Warden (with the option to start a new Warden, if your past Warden sacrificed) on a quest of major significance to Thedas. What Flemeth or Morrigan intend to do with this child can have tremendous outcomes. It would be even better if Hawke turned out to be an anti-hero aligned with Flemeth, just so I could take him/her out and also destroy Flemeth's demon. And, since BioWare has now decided that the Warden will just disappear mysteriously, I can think of no better ending for Morrigan lovers than to have the Warden go after this child with her, resolve the issue while romancing Morrigan along the way, and then disappear together as a couple.
Hope is a method.
Comment by nethrelm on August 31, 2010 at 3:46 am
The one thing every comment I read seems to over look as far as the possibility that the OGB is canon is this: Why do you assume that your ultimate sacrifice death didn't happen regardless? Let me explain. When the Archdemon is slain, a massive explosion occurs atop Fort Drakon, with whoever it was that dealt the final blow at ground zero. The odds of surviving such an explosion are pretty much 50/50, if your lucky. So, we have:
Scenario A – You refused the ritual, but you don't survive killing the archdemon, not because his soul eradicated yours, but because the power of the explosion simply killed you. The baby is either Alistair's or Loghain's, who accepted the ritual behind your back.
Scenario B – You refused the ritual, but you didn't take the final blow. Same as Scenario A, except someone else was at ground zero and didn't survive the blast. The baby is still that person's baby.
Scenario C – You accepted the ritual and whoever took the final blow got lucky and didn't get killed in the explosion. The baby is whoever's it is: yours, Alistair's or Loghain's.
Everybody is happy and the OGB is canon without breaking continuity!
Comment by Boo on March 7, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Challenge accepted… I haven't had single playthrough which went through the ritual for simple reason it's flemeths idea and desire to have this kid from the get go so why would I go through all the hardship of killing her and such if I was just going to do what she wanted in first place. Don't tell others they lack imagination because they didn't do what you did. Though I do see a way of getting past it regarding the sacrifice self ending as in she could have slipped a pill in alistairs drink nght before (since *she says* has to be a young grey warden to make baby and not all players picked male warden), had her fun while he was out cold and after you main character dies killing archdemon she or he is not burned on pyre she is locked away in place where other grey wardens dead bodies reside. So she could have gone there ripped out archdemon essence from your corpse and put in alistairs drug made, rape baby.
Comment by XxPE12C3PT10NxX on March 21, 2011 at 4:16 am
they could do a history check like in da2. A- you did the ritual. B- your companion, whoever it was, did the ritual. or C- no one did the ritual. The could come up with some alternate story line for choice C, and do the story as usual for the other two.
Comment by goma on August 4, 2011 at 11:27 pm
shucks, this article is waaay outdated. too bad DA2 was a complete and utter let down. they made a bunch of new plots, but did nothing to advance ANY of the old ones… sucks
Comment by Zeek on September 19, 2011 at 3:33 am
I haven't played DA2 yet but I'd like to point out one thing. Morrigan has a child, even if you don't perform the Dark Ritual. Now, I'd like to see this visited too and see exactly what happens with that. I hate the way they left off her plot. I like Morrigan's dark edge. My Warden often doesn't agree with her but he loves her none the less. What happens with that?
Comment by Silfren on February 28, 2012 at 4:09 am
Not necessarily. If you play a female Warden and don't to the Dark Ritual, the slides say nothing a bout Morrigan being pregnant. Same if a male Warden never sleeps with her. So no, she doesn't have a child automatically. It depends on player choice as much as the Dark Ritual does.